Saturday, April 11, 2009
DKP 2.0!
The current loot point system in the guild was developed in April 2008 as we were progressing through Karazhan. There have been minor changes to this system since then, but there are big changes on the horizon.
The current loot system is largely based on raid participation, i.e. the more you participate the more points you get. This system has served us well throughout BC and the beginning of WOTLK, but there is a growing, cautious consensus among guild officers that it is time to change the looting scheme to a merit-based looting scheme, which means that points would be based on accomplishments (boss kills, boss attempts, etc.).
The reasons for this change are numerous and beyond the reach of this blog entry, however it's obvious that this change will have significant effects on all raiders. In order to experiment and study how this change will effect raiders the guild officers have approved a motion that would allow for certain 25-man raids to award points based on an experimental system based on boss kills (and for certain high-difficulty runs to award small compensation for wipes).
The first experimental 25-man raid will be on April 12, 2009. There will be selected experimental runs for the rest of the month, while the rest of the runs will use the conventional participation system. By May, if everything works ok, I'm hoping that our 10 and 25-man runs will be fully converted to the new dkp model. I'm sure there's going to be thousands of questions, so be patient as I try to listen, address concerns, and plan for the future.
Sunday, February 8, 2009
Need Before Greed and the Curious Case of Purple Syndrome
People can spend their loot points however they wish insofar as their need for the item is a genuine need. There are a few common situations where a posted need may not really be a need and should be challenged by the master looter, raid leader, or other raid officers. I will list two common situations and would appreciate others' input.
- Needing on a less-durable item: Sometimes we all may choose to wear an item that is less durable just for the exceptional stats (example: paladin wearing mail item, druid wearing cloth item, shaman wearing leather item, etc). However in a raid situation where loot is often contested many people feel that needs for less durable items isn't legit. Perhaps we should be more willing to support mail-wearers need for mail, leather-wearers need for leather, etc, and have their "needs" take priority.
- Cloth healers vs cloth dps: Frequently cloth wearers of all kinds will type a "u" on similar non-token items. Stats such as intellect, spellpower, spirit, and haste rating are equally useful for healers and dps. However, certain stats help make an item look more like a dps item or a healer item. Hit rating is definitely a dps thing while mp5 is definitely more of a priority for healers. Many feel that we should keep this in mind when judging the validity of clothwearer's needs.
I appreciate any feedback on this issue and I will be talking to raidleaders about this. I think that if we as master looters, raid leaders, and raid officers will step in and screen all those "u" postings a little more we will get more usage out of our epic items before they get replaced and vendor trashed.
Monday, January 26, 2009
The Amazing Race -- Massacre Edition
It's time to use those mithril spurs, that crusader aura, and those mage portals because it's Amazing Race time! In order to celebrate the 2 year anniversary of the founding of Massacre I will be organizing a race through Azeroth and the Outlands that will award some nice gold prizes.
Rules of the Amazing Race
- Each race participant must be a part of a 2-person team consisting of one higher level character (lvl 77+) and one lower level character (below 77).
- There will be 8 checkpoints spread throughout Azeroth and Outlands. Participants will not know these checkpoints ahead of time and will be given clues at each checkpoint to help them determine where the next checkpoint is. Both members of a team must be present at a checkpoint before they will receive credit for it.
- A checkpoint guild-member will be available at each checkpoint to give credit to teams. That person will provide a teammember with a random object. At the conclusion of the race a teammember will give me (Nistagmus) their 8 objects from their checkpoints.
- Each team may use any travel skill at their disposal (including hearthstones, epic mounts, mage portals and warlock summons) to reach a given destination, but they will not get credit for a checkpoint until both teammates reach the checkpoint.
Rewards
- The first place team will receive 800g (400g each).
- The second place team will receive 400g (200g each).
- The third place team will receive 200g (100g each).
- The fourth place team will receive 100g (50g each).
- The fifth place team will receive 50g (25g each).
- Each additional team will receive 20g (10g each) for completing the race.
Sunday, November 23, 2008
Guild Announcements
- The primary mission for the guild at this time is leveling. The game expansion has caused us to go from being a raiding guild to once again being a leveling guild. This focus will last for a handful of weeks until we have enough level 80 players to shift the focus back to raiding (10 and 25 man raids). With this in mind I will not be awarding loot points for Burning Crusade raid participation unless the raidmaster of those raids can give me good reason to consider awarding those loot points.
- There will be a 50% penalty applied to all existing loot points. The guild officers have decided to compromise between those who want a clean slate and those who want to keep all the old points. Just as a refresher, the guild uses a loot point system that is required for all 25 man raids and is optional for 10 man raids.
- The guild tabard design contest has been delayed for 1 week due to insufficient number of submitted designs. You may email me any tabard designs. Send them to nistagmus70-massacre@yahoo.com
Thanks for your help,
Nistagmus
Saturday, November 22, 2008
Officer Meeting Agenda for Sunday, 11-23-08
Wednesday, November 19, 2008
Project Guild Tabard!
Friday, October 24, 2008
Current Raiding and Loot Point System
The days of Kara Blue and Gold are long gone (thank goodness). In any recent week we have several Karazhan teams, ZA teams, and other assorted 25-man raids. How are these teams formed? In short anyone can create a 10-man raid team. However, if you want people to actually join your team you are advised to have some experience running the instance you're going into, have a loot system of your own choosing that is explained to the team ahead of time, and have a way to post your raid information onto the guild website so that your members can get their loot points. Remember, every guildmember who walks away from a raid receives either loot or a loot point (to apply toward future loot auctions), not both.
Here are some basic rules for raid groups to follow if they want their loot points to be counted on the guild website:
- More than half of the raid must be Massacre members (at least 6 people for a 10-man raid, and at least 13 people for a 25-man raid).
- Groups must either defeat at least 1 boss or they (as a group) must have been in the instance at least an hour.
- Groups must have a member with Raidtracker addon who can post raid info, or they must keep track of attendence and looting on their own and write the GM with all this info. Groups must post their information days in advance of a 25-man raid if they want their points to be updated in time for that raid.
When are loot points used? Loot points are used in 25-man raids and can be used in ANY 10-man raid if a lootmaster chooses to use them. So go out there, form your groups, and document your raid activity on the guild website so that the loot auctions are fair and peaceful.
Thanks,
Nistagmus
Saturday, August 30, 2008
Officer Meeting Overview
- Officer promotions, demotions, and reorganization
- Guild bank loan proposal
Officer promotions, demotions, and reorganization
Every month I will be reviewing officer ranks and will be making changes depending on the needs of the guild.
- Superflyy -- propose going from Raid officer to alchemy officer. Will reconsider Raid officer rank if Superflyy gets his own consistent team going. In the meantime Superflyy will need to upload his alchemy skills to the website.
- Timotheus -- 1 month inactivity and stated earlier that he did not expect to return to WoW. I propose demoting this character and alts to member rank.
- Tobee -- long period of inactivity (>2 months) and just recently signed back on. He is currently the goblin engineering officer. I propose demoting to member.
- Lagoulus -- Has organized 3 "kara team spanky" runs over 2 weeks and has expressed interest in continuing this team. His team is one of 3 kara teams that we now have (others include Beginner Kara with Sandman and Team Dom Kara-style). I propose Lagoulus be promoted to Raid Officer as long as his team is active.
- Grizzlybear -- formerly shaman class officer, no clear role at present. I propose we demote to member until such time where he can show that he has either 375 profession beneficial to the guild or can help the guild in some other capacity.
- Holyspirt -- formerly paladin class officer, no clear role at present. I propose we demote to member until such time where he can show that he has either 375 profession beneficial to the guild or can help the guild in some other capacity.
- Lotto -- Thorthor's character that ran the guild lottery during Etheus's tenure as GM. Since then his main character has left and then rejoined the guild. I propose that we demote Lotto to member and table the lottery program until further notice.
Guild Bank Loan Program
Several weeks ago the guild officers approved (in a vote of 9 for, 3 against, and 1 abstention) the general concept of a guild bank loan program. I propose the following to start this program:
- The guild officers will allow the GM to provide some guild funds to selected guildmembers as long as certain conditions are met (see the conditions below).
- Those applying for the loan must be a lvl 70 member, active, and in good standing and must have been in the guild for at least 2 months with no history of quitting the guild.
- The GM can distribute up to 500g with the consent of 3 other officers.
- The GM can distribute up to 1000g with the consent of 6 other officers.
- Interest for each loan will be 1% compounded daily, and after 2 weeks any unpaid loan will be grounds for removal from the guild.
- Loans should be used for recipes, patterns, and other professions-related skills that could potentially benefit other guildmembers. Items that can only benefit one person (mounts, consumables, gear) will not be considered except for special circumstances.
Sunday, August 24, 2008
Zul Aman is the new Karazhan

Haven't you heard? Zul Aman is the new Karazhan! That's right. In an effort to get more people into Zul Aman more frequently I will be creating a special loot point rule for all ZA runs in the next two weeks until the end of September 7th. Each ZA run will award participants a maximum of 2 rollover points (instead of 1). Even those who receive loot will get a rollover point and only forfeit 1 of those points.
The reason for this 2 week change is that we need to make more progress in ZA and other higher level raids. Many of our higher level players still spend 2-3 nights per week in Karazhan and at most only 1 night per week in Zul Aman. Of course we will continue our healthy Kara program (which now consists of 4 consistent teams), but we have to look beyond Kara in order to challenge many of loyal members who are now geared for Black Temple.
Sunday, August 17, 2008
Loot Auctioning (the Smart, Selfish Way)
In most contested loot situations there is going to be a person with more points and a person with fewer points. The person with fewer points is actually going to set the tone of the auction. It's important for all of us to keep the following in mind in contested looting: When you bid on dropped items you're also forcing others to increase their bid and use more of their overall points.
Let's take the above scenario and see what happens if Player B decides to be more assertive in his/her bidding: Player A bids 2 points, but Player B (knowing that he's likely to be outbid), decides to bid 8 of points. Player A, who really wants that helm, is forced to bid 9 points or higher in order to get his helm. Once the raid is over Player B gets a rollover point for a total of 11 points, and Player A is left with 11 points (20-9=11). After just one contested loot Player A and Player B are now equal in point standing.
The point here is that we are all nice people and fun to play with, but we need to be more selfish during contested loot situations. The only way that people like me, Berber, Sorilea, and Sagemage are going to use our points is if people bid against us and make us use our points.

Sunday, August 10, 2008
Officer Meeting Proposals
(1) Proposed reimbursement of Koalat's expense for reorganizing guild arena team. Koalat bought a 5v5 and 3v3 arena team in Massacre's name. The cost for each of these was 200g and 120g, respectively. Koalat is asking about reimbursement from the guild bank.
Debate points: (Pro) Koalat is the pvp officer and he is trying to encourage arena activity in the guild. (Con) Koalat did ask for reimbursement funds after spending his own money, and we really should ask that people request funding before spending their own money and expecting reimbursement. Please reply to Nistagmus with "yay" we should reimburse Koalat using guild funds, or "nay" we should not. "Abstain" if you choose not to vote.
(2) Proposed change #1 to the loot point system for end-game raiding. I am requesting that we vote on restricting an individual's total rollover points to 30. Currently there are two players who have more than 20 rollover points (Nistagmus with 30 and Berber with 23). These points are the ones you get whenever you attend a raid but do not get any loot. Debate points: (Pro) There is an increasing divide between newer and older players in terms of loot points. Newer players are less likely to buy into our looting system if they see that their looting competition has ten times more points or more. A cap on total rollover points would allow newer players to catch up and would force older players to use their rollover points. (Con) Older players who have helped build the guild would be taxed in a way, and would lose points once their accounts reach 30. Please reply to Nistagmus with "yay" we should cap personal rollover points at 30, or "nay" we should not. "Abstain" if you choose not to vote.
(3) Proposed change #2 to the loot system for end-game raiding. I am requesting that add-on points (also known as "use-or-lose" points), which are points that we award for having Omen, Ventrilo, Guild Calendar, and the tank point, be used only in the case where a tie-breaker is needed. Right now a player may wager the sum of their rollover points (found on the guild website) plus their aforementioned add-on points. If the proposal is accepted then players may only wager their rollover points, and add-on points (as well as the tank point) would only break a tie. Debate points: (Pro) Now that rollover points are posted on the website, people are much more aware of their point situation. However, people get confused easily when thinking about how add-on points (and tank point) come into play. If we were to use add-on points only in the case of a tie it would simplify the loot distribution process greatly and would still give incentives for people to use the standard add-ons and to be a tank spec. (Con) Some will argue that we want people's addons to be updated before each run and that only using add-on and tank points for tie-breaker situations would provide less incentive for people to update their addons. Some feel that the loot system has been changing too much in a short period of time and are resistant to another superficial change. Please reply to Nistagmus with "yay" we should make add-on and tank point apply only for tie-break situations, or "nay" if we should keep the current setup. "Abstain" if you choose not to vote.
(4) Proposed Guild Bank Loan Program. There is a general proposal for a Guild Bank Loan System where guild funds could be loaned to responsible parties with the expectation of being paid back at a future date. The details of such a program are not in debate here and the who, when, where, why, how's are yet to be answered. All I'm asking the officers to do today is answer the question "Should we attempt to develop a Guild Bank Loan Program that would loan money to certain guild members if it is determined that it can be done safely and responsibly?" If the officers say yes, then I will work with guild bankers to try and develop such a program. If officers say no then the proposal dies for now. Debate points: (Pro) There are many long-time guild members who would benefit from such a program (purchasing mounts, recipes, patterns, etc), and currently our guild funds are sitting in the bank doing nothing. (Con) Loaning money to anyone is always a risk and we would could stand to lose money in this program. Please reply to Nistagmus with "yay" if we should explore this program further, or "nay" if we should not even consider it. "Abstain" if you choose not to vote.
Thank you all for your input. I would also like to express how proud I am of this guild. Last night at Gruuls I forgot to set master looter for the first boss and no one illegally looted any of the bosses when they easily could have done it and blamed it on me. I was very encouraged by our classy members.
Thursday, July 31, 2008
Looting System Changes

Sunday, July 20, 2008
Proposed Guild Ranking System

Saturday, May 31, 2008
Kara Planning Meeting
Nistagmus, Praetorian, Mindaika, Thesandman, Jasron, Steelz, Kjallakr, Xaevyer, Jumba
(1) Blue and Gold Team Shuffle
- For the last week I have heard more people suggest that we mix the 2 Kara teams somehow. Proponents say that we need to help gear people in order to progress to 25-man raids and farming Kara for badges (like Blue largely does) is counterproductive. Opponents say that mixing the 2 teams will dampen the progress that Blue team had made.
- Most of the people at the meeting agree that the 2 teams should be mixed, but there's mixed views on how they should be mixed. Some suggest a complete and organized shuffle of tanks, healers, and dps to create 2 equally capable teams. Some say that certain blue team members should be scheduled to run with gold team each week, and vice versa, thereby creating certain "rotating seats" on each team (United Nations style, lol). Others suggest that 3 out of 4 weeks should be mixed teams, and 1 week per month should be current teams.
- I created a poll on the guild website for everyone to take regarding this issue. Go to http://massacre-nazgrel.guildlaunch.com and click on "polls". The poll closes on June 5th.
- I will act on this issue within 2 weeks.
(2) Looting system
- It's been 6 weeks since we started the point-system for looting and we can look back and reflect a little on it's usefulness.
- Mindaika claimed that the new guild website has a very widely-used DKP tracker that might be tailored for our needs. It is apparently able to track other intangible aspects of Kara participation, such as making potions for people.
- Jasron helped point out that the current system benefits activity, but those who give up their spots for those less-geared may not get recognized by the system.
- There was a short discussion over a detail of the current system where main characters and their alts can share the same looting points (for example....points that Nistagmus earns can be applied toward Strabismus, my alt). Proponents of this feature say that those with 70 level alts are more active and help allow a Gold team to exist in the first place (40% of gold team is currently alts) and that people should be allowed to choose how and where they spend their points. Opponents say that this feature is unfair to those without alts and that potentially very active and needy characters could lose loot to very inactive alt toons. They also say that this feature is counterproductive to the goal of creating a 25-man raiding team since alts cannot be in a team at the same time as mains.
- Most people at the meeting seemed to not like this feature of the looting system. I will recalculate looting points and will have mains' and alts' points seperated in 3 days.
(3) Kara Pugging
- In the past couple of weeks we've seen an increase in Kara pugging, both accidental and intentional. Thesandman wanted to know what we should do to address and/or prevent this in the future.
- I claimed that while there are no current rules regarding pugging Kara, our guild leadership has recently acted after a Kara pug group was set up on our guild GEM channel. They effectively issued a "cease and desist", but they did not have to impose any penalties. We can expect our leadership to act similarly in the future.
- Jasron suggested that we impose a loot point penalty for those who are caught in an unapproved Kara pug group.
- I'm not at the point where I want to punish people for participating in Kara pug groups, but I would like to be notified if people are wanting to do so, for I might be able to help them get set up on a team. Kara is a team experience and pug's do nothing for teambuilding.
Please register at http://massacre-nazgrel.guildlaunch.com
I know you're thinking "not another attempt at a guild website" but we're going to try to make this one work. It has a lot of potential.
Questions of Fairness
In the chart below I sampled 22 players (some active guild members and 2 ex-guildies) and presented data on the numbers of individuals' loot items received from Kara over 6 weeks and the number of runs each person participated in. I finally computed the ratio of loot received per runs attended. For this study I assumed that a general measure of fairness would be numbers of loot received per runs attended (4th column).
Of course this chart has flaws. Numbers of loot per person by no means takes into account the value of each item they received (T4 items are worth a lot more than a random epic off a trash mob). Also, number of runs attended per person by no means takes into account the time each person spent in an instance. Some runs last 5 hours, and some last 1 hour. Finally, I sampled Blue team members more frequently simply because there was more data available on them; Gold team is roughly half alts, so alts looting numbers were linked with their main characters on Blue team. With all this said, I think we can use this data to get a basic understanding of how fair (or not) the modified DKP has been.

When you look at the 4th column you notice that the ratios for #'s of loot/runs are all over the place from zero to 1.875, and everywhere in-between. So those who expect looting to be completely equitable across the board are likely to be disappointed. However the better question might be ... is this ratio related to the number of runs one participates in (i.e. do people who run a lot and build up rollover points get more loot?)?
I have not done a linear regression on this yet, but I will if I need to!!! Just by glancing at the data it doesn't appear that those who run more often have an unfair advantage at looting under the modified DKP. There are those who appear very lucky and those who appear very unlucky, but these extreme ratios are largely because they haven't participated in very many runs (low denominators). Those who have run more than 10 times seem to fall between 0.2 and 0.8 in the loot/runs ratios. Four of the double-digit runners are above 0.5 and four are below 0.5. Any statistics people out there feel free to compute the standard deviation and all that; I'm not getting a grade for this so I'm not going to do it.
I am open to any questions people have about this data, and as always I appreciate feedback and constructive criticism.
Saturday, May 24, 2008
Read Before You Need!
Please use the links below to see what tokens apply to you and to determine which tiered pieces you need:
From High King Maulgar
Pauldrons of the Fallen Champion -- for Paladins, Rogues, and Shaman
Pauldrons of the Fallen Defender -- for Warriors, Priests, and Druids
Pauldrons of the Fallen Hero -- for Hunters, Mages, and Warlocks
From Gruul the Dragonkiller
Leggings of the Fallen Champion -- for Paladins, Rogues, and Shaman
Leggings of the Fallen Defender -- for Warriors, Priests, and Druids
Leggings of the Fallen Hero -- for Hunters, Mages, and Warlocks
The passphrase for your raid invite is: Wiggles the Clown
Wednesday, April 16, 2008
A Proposed DPK Looting System for Massacre End-Game Raiding
Many guilds employ a DKP system (an acronym from a different game in the past) to help distribute loot. These systems award points to members who exhibit various worthwhile features and allow members to use those points to purchase or auction (against other raid members) for particular loot items.
The benefits of such a system: (1) it recognizes personal willingness to bargain for certain loot items, (2) it provides incentives for raidmembers to conform to accepted norms, and (3) it ideally provides a more equitable and less random distribution of loot.
The drawbacks of such a system: (1) All people may not agree on how or why points are awarded, and (2) keeping track of individuals' "one-time" and "rollover" points can get tedious.
Massacre will experiment with a DKP system for the distribution of epic drops. The system details the awarding of points that will refresh at the start of each raid. A DKP point will be awarded for the following:
Non-rollover points -- points that appear at beginning of raid and disappear at its end.
- GEM installed
- Ventrillo installed
- Omen2 installed
- Preferred spec -- Tank
- Being on-time and on-site for raid
Rollover points -- points that carryover to subsequent raids if unused.
- Zero-sum point --- A point is awarded to those who received no epic loot during the previous run.
- Compensation --- A point can be awarded by the MoA as compensation if an individual is slighted or wronged.
Recalling DPK points
- Unexpected absence
- Unexpected AFK for >5 minutes
- Not following captain's directions during raid
Ideally this system will allow individuals to decide for themselves how much they sacrifice for a given loot item. Once all of one's points are used they may no longer bargain for a drop and could only receive loot from a need roll where the item is uncontested. Also, those who do not receive anything will not be left emptyhanded, for their "zero-sum point" will be allowed to rollover to the next raid.
Monday, March 31, 2008
Karazhan Team Captains
Requirements for the Team Captain position
- Level 70 and a guild member (must not be initiate rank)
- Must have the Master's Key (key to Karazhan)
- Must have required add-ons (Omen, GEM, Ventrillo)
- Must be willing to lead Karazhan team at least twice a week.
Benefits of the Team Captain position
- Team captains have ability to recruit their own team members (with MoA supervising to make sure rules for Kara invites are followed).
- Team captains have the ultimate authority for scheduling runs when they want them.
- Team captains decide intra-team jobs (who marks, DE's, who Master-loots [pending approval of the MoA]).
- Team captains must schedule their teams' runs (preferably twice a week or more).
- Team captains must recruit team members from eligible guild members, only relying on non-guild members as a last resort.
- Team captains must report to the MoA for any changes in the above 2 points, and must also consult with the MoA to resolve intra-team disputes.
I appreciate any feedback regarding this change. I took the position of MoA with the goal of being able to help people make that transition to end-game play once they hit 70. This change will be an experiment at first, but it should enable me to do my MoA job better rather than always being pulled into the details of each Kara team. Once team captains are chosen teams may look very different than they do now, however I want guildmembers to have a sense of ownership over these teams. I hope that having team captains will help accomplish this.
Monday, March 10, 2008
New Rule for Green Drops in End-Game Raids
I am open to suggestions about this new rule, but for now this rule applies.
Sunday, February 3, 2008
Suggested Rules for Karazhan Invitations and Looting
1. Need takes precident over greed -- (A) As far as invitations to Kara go, if the group needs a healer, the healer gets invited first, and if the group needs a tank, the tank gets invited first; (B)but as far as looting goes healers need healing gear more than dps'ers, and tanks need tank gear more than gear with attack power, etc. MoA has final decision in how this rule is interpreted.
2. Members take precident over initiates -- teammates who have been in the guild less than two weeks will be less likely to be invited to Kara or receive loot compared to their equally situated guild members. MoA has final decision in how this rule is interpreted.
3. Community Standards -- Guild members are more likely to receive a Kara invitation and/or receive priority for loot when they have agreed to play under certain standards. For the time being this means (A) using Ventrilo as their voice communication program, (B) using Omen as their threatmeter software, and (C) using Guild Event Manager (GEM) for event scheduling. There will always be guild members who are unable to use these addons for whatever reason and these restrictions need to be put in writing for me before any Kara run. MoA has final decision in how this rule is interpreted.
4. In the event that two or more guild members are equally qualified for a Kara run or for some Kara loot, and in the event that the conflict cannot be resolved between those parties, random chance will dictate who receives privilege (MoA will roll and highest wins). MoA has final decision in how this rule is interpreted.
These rules are by no means final and should be criticised and revised as we grow into an end-game powerhouse. Please forward me any suggestions.


















